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Computer Tips Access Fields Database Data Email


here's the primary mill listing form. this is an old one. you can see how there's a certain amount of species (with percentage handled, which is a good indicator of what their focus is, so if it was a clicky box with the ability to put up to three digitis because sometimes it's WSPF 100% instead of just a check yes or no, that would be awesome.)

okay, lets talk about this for a while and develop a solid strategy so that none of us, primarily me, are wasting our time. I may have to consult with my programmer dude a bit.

One possibility is the following:

1) you separate everything into fields. A lot more prep work obviously, but perhaps we could formulate some fancy search and replace procedures to make a lot of it quick. The advantage of breaking it up into fields is that you can easily unclick something, like for example remove 1x2 Boards of Products and add 1x3 and 1x8. These fields would be visible as checkboxes, and when you open up the mill_individual form, you can simply edit it as if you were looking at the pdf appform you sent me.

What concerns the output on the web visible to your paying dudes, that information can be easily converted to another format, like a Product cell showing Boards - 1x3, 1x8; Studs - 2x4... for example.

2) a second option is that I make some sort of input data form for access, whereby the click boxes would only apply when inputting NEW mills. Not for editing, although maybe I could make some fancy form which would extract the info from single cell format to the checkbox format. I'd have to ponder and consult about that possibility.

If things are totally broken down into separate fields as per option 1, then each field can be given a defined list. For example, when I issue an invoice to customers, on my Order form I have a "list box" for How to Pay Me. When I click on it the list opens up ("dropdown menu") and I can choose from Pay in Cash, Bank Transfer to Czech Account, PayPal, etc. etc. If in the future I set up another payment system, I can simply add this to the list. So this field only allows ONE of the list. I can easily change it (edit it) when I have my Order form open.

Other fields might have a validation requirement, like it must be a number, and wont let you punch in a letter by mistake. Or the number has to be in a certain range, etc. etc.

If you did want to break this up like this, I would have to create separate tables, such as one for Species Handled, possibly a special one for Species.Handled_Western.Softwood, with its fields being Alpine Fir, Balsam Fir, etc. etc. Breaking up the data into different tables is how a solid database works, and it will keep it fast and light. But obviously much more prep work for you maybe.

Does this info change frequently? Do new mills constantly pop up on the horizon? I get about 4 new translator applicants a day, which is why I set up my online database. If you only have to update this info once in a while, or you only get a new mill once in a while, perhaps option 2 might be better, rather than restructure everything.

If you do go option 1, it's not a big deal to add new fields to individual tables, such as add field 1x13 to Products_Boards. We should obviously discuss this matter carefully before embarking on some long mission.

Okay, back to work! Exciting times for me. Certainly more interesting than writing about sludge pouring down gravitational sewer conduits from sumps and cesspools, emptied by gulley suckers....

 the products are listed, then at the top of page 2 is the sizes, which can either be boxes or fields to type. the list of products and sizes different for the remanufacturers, panel mills and pulp mills. But the species stays the same whatever type of mill it is. so I don't know if its too much of a pain in the ass for you to set up that way, but is sure would be easy breezy later for adding new mills and editing existing ones! Karel I looked at the database of the mill listings and I think it looks FANTASTIC. I can't foresee any problems with it at all, the way the Contact field is laid out now suits me fine because it is easy to see when a new title starts. I think this is really great. I can't do any more on this today, I have a bunch of boring shit I have to do, I am going to be on CBC radio news this afternoon so must focus on other things. But this is great, I expect tomorrow to be able to get back to researching the rest of the book, it's probably gonna take longer than I thought the way things are going (busy with other stuff), but I think the February deadline will be kept so that's what matters.


do you want a captcha thing for the login window? With a captcha, whenever logging in to view the database, the surfer will not only have to punch in their username and password (although I'll set up cookie possibilities if they don't want to punch that in every time), but also interpret the squiggly characters. Some people might find this additional step annoying, and its only necessary if you are super paranoid that someone will try to hack in by "brutal force", which means to use some script which keeps inputting different usernames and passwords with the hope that it will eventually "luck out". With a long enough usernames and passwords, especially if you combine it with different cases and numbers (like password=maRk7eta as opposed to =keta), the combinations and permutations are in the zillions and pretty well impossible for someone to stumble on a correct username and password. So personally I would just keep it to simple login without captcha, but set your own username and passwords table. If someone pays you, you can just send them the username and password. I would suggest not allowing them to change it. If they forget, they can just press the "forgot password" link, in which case they will be asked to punch in their email address. If an email address is found in the user table, that address will be sent an email with the login details. So there is no real way to hack in. Accept?

If someone's account is up or you want to ban them access, all you have to do is change the password and remove their email address from the USER table, and upload that (once converted into sqlite) to the web. Simple as that. I can create a table with hundreds of records, and once that runs out you can create more records easily.


don't want to bore you with some of my other projects but I'm pretty excited about this one. My Siberian perl programmer (who made the script to convert your raw data in Excel to line up the fields properly) designed my entire translator application form in perl. At the time I wasn't sure (or knowledged) what to design it in, and I was humming between php/mysql and his perl. He was cheaper, I had good experience with him, so I went with him, but over time we've learned that perl/dbase can be significantly slower. Anyway, the system works fine enough, but now that I want to implement my budding php skills (one thing I've been lacking a very long time is an online search form with which I can look up translators like I do offline - source to target language searches - so that I can continue to operate my agency even from an internet cafe, like I had to this summer while tree planting), I'm learning that php has limitations when working with dbase files (can't read memo files, for example - big minus). I surfed last night looking for some scripts which would convert the db files to sqlite online, but doesn't seem to be anything out there. My php programmer already made a script which converts them to mysql, but it doesn't seem to work very well. Anyway, it just occurred to me that an easy solution would be for my perl dude to write a .cgi (perl) script which converts the db files to .csv, and then my php script would convert that into sqlite. Seems easy enough, but kind of genius a bit because I'm actually combining perl and php onto a single page, and it should be reliable. Once I get that licked I'm going to design a webpage which converts such files online, free of charge. From what I've researched last night, I'm sure I'll be the super top of google for this keyword search, and with my practically unscathed capacity of 3000 gig bandwidth a month, don't think this free service should dent it much. And if while using it anyone wants to buy my script and use it for their own online database, I think 50 to a hundred bucks would be fair. And market my other programming skills from the page, and web design and all that. So I'm excited to try this. I figured I'd have a gjillion projects I could assign myself, so now it's simply a matter of combining all my other skills and see if I can monetise it somehow! Apparently a lot of big companies use dbase files, since they are easily opened by Excel and Access etc. Might be interesting!


dude, you wrote down below:

so we have decided we do not need to go mySQL, and not even sqLite, but just put it up in Microsoft Access.

Where on earth did you get that? Access is your OFFLINE database for your eyes only, and as I said, I convert that database to sqlite and put it ONLINE. I never said I'm putting access online. The underlying tables is data, and access, mysql, sqlite etc., these are just windows (not MS, but the ones that you can see through and have wooden frames) which DISPLAY that data for the viewer. Heck, you can just open your rtf files in notepad and watch a massive plate of spaghetti, and try to interpret it yourself, if you can figure out how to ignore the rtf code and sort the data...

I remembered that I know a guy who is a Microsoft developer (switching over to becoming a professional photographer, after taking pictures of eagles in White Rock. them eagles, they can really grab your heart!!) anyways, I asked him about the license thing, which I know you already answered. Anyways, he's talking about stuff here that I don't really understand, might not apply to us. But seems very knowledgable and might be interesting to you regardless.

To be honest I haven’t shot many eagles lately, been busy with studio and other photography projects. However, I did notice some of the eagles returning to the area over the last couple of months.  <donning geek cap  Ok, so first things first. Access as a database engine was never intended to scale up to multiple simultaneous like you normally have with a typical database driven web page. All web page stuff is “Server” based versus the typical single user PC “Workstation” style use that Access was originally designed for. It is often referred to as a “personal” database engine. Microsoft officially does not recommend or officially support its use on web servers. What all this means is that Access will buckle at a certain point as more and more users start using your page (at the same time). So if you don’t expect much traffic on these pages you may be able to get away with using Access to handle the data for the page. (I have a couple of simple web pages that use Access without problem and I also have a mildly busy one that seems to hiccup once and a while but seems to get by).  Another simple way to picture it is this… People’s houses and apartments typically have a single front door. This is usually more than adequate for the typical traffic of people coming and going to an individual’s home. Department stores, grocery stores, malls, office buildings etc… often have anything from dual doors up to rows of front doors to allow for larger traffic volume to come and go. Imagine for a moment if you had the same number of people come and go to and from your house each day that Wal-Mart has in a day. Besides other problems, there would be a major bottle neck at the front door. Using access is like having a single front door… would work fine as long as the traffic is light.  So, on to licensing… You can create and store data in the Access file format (.mdb) on any pc that has MS Office or Access on it, and that version of the Access software is the only license needed for the original file creation. That is only part of the story though. Once you take that .mdb file and plop it on a web server, the web server typically does not have access installed on it but still needs a way to read and write to the Access .mdb file that you have.  Here is where it gets a little bit harder to give you a straight Yes/No answer. I am experienced with mostly Microsoft tools for my web server and web development stuff. Microsoft’s IIS (Internet Information Server) which is what I am familiar with when it comes to web servers, has built in support for reading and writing Access files, or at least I believe it does. I can tell you for sure that when I use Microsoft .Net developer tools to develop my web pages that I do have full support for reading and writing to Access .mdb files and there is no need for any additional licenses to use that file or the Access Database engine (the thing that does the reading and writing to the .mdb files) in that situation. The only issue left then is the first one… performance under multiuser use that may or may not be sufficient in a Microsoft based web server environment.  BUT… the part I can’t answer for you 100% is in non-“Microsoft” web environments if there is a licensing or technical issue with reading and writing Access .mdb files.  So if your web server is IIS and supports .NET, no problems with licensing, but you may hit the performance wall at some point. If your web server is some form of Linux and built around non-Microsoft technologies, I’m honestly not sure of what the deal is.  I hope this is of some help, sorry for not having more details of all the different environments. <removing geek cap  I have two credits left that I need to take over at Focal Point to finish my certificate there. They didn’t offer the classes that I was looking to take this semester so I am not taking anything there at the moment. I hope they offer the ones I am after next semester (April) so that I can finish up there. Meanwhile I started working on a second parallel photography program over at Langara last summer and I am about half way through that one. So I hope by the end of the year or early next year I will have completed the certificate programs at both places and be ready to start a new career as a commercial photographer.

 how is the eagle photography going? Nesting season is coming, there should be lots of activity again! My video camera is getting a maintenance check, should have it back next week.     I have a quick question for you, if you could put on your computer geek cap for a second . . . .     I am putting my sawmill listing Directory on my website, will charge users for a yearly subscription. Is it true I have to pay a monthly license fee? the database is relatively not complicated, so we have decided we do not need to go mySQL, and not even sqLite, but just put it up in Microsoft Access. Or, I don't understand the details exactly: the database will be created in Access, then go on the web in php. Like this,     except when a person clicks the actual mill, the listing will have more detailed information.     So do I have to pay a license to the dreaded Microsoft for that?     thanks Dwayne! are you still taking photo classes up here or is that over?


no probs and it's important you understand. If you get around to installing that last package I sent you, you'll see sql and php in action, in a regular web browser. Or you can go to sqlite's website and read it for about 5 minutes. Quite impressive I'd say. Looking forward to setting up tons of database websites. Just got approval from the new server company. Have run into problems with something like that once before: the server company wouldn't let me open an account because my internet connection showed that I was located in some supposedly terrorist middle east country, and my credit card address information was in Seattle. I told them they were a bunch of Nazi CIA ass suckers and that they can go and f*ck themselves. Fortunately this company did not provoke me some stupidity and simply accepted me, because I didn't really find an alternative good service. In the next few days I hope to get my new system for you set up on my new web, just to show you. There are not that many records, and I wont be linking to it, so no worries about someone taking it. But no problem can password protect the folder any time. In the next few days I also hope to have the new login script working. One thing I love about php is that it's open source and its relatively easy to find scripts for free. I only have to get them operating, and learn from them in the process. Like my new auto link exchange directory. Got it working and now I'm tweaking it for my own purposes. Like when a someone submits, I want to be notified by email together with them, so I know I should check it and approve their link as soon as possible. For that I had to dig through the core and brain of the rather extensive scripts (many different files) to hone in on that exact location where it says "Send the dude an email with this text", and then to figure out how to add my email address to it. Spending enough time just figuring that out. If I had to build all these scripts from base up, it would probably take me years. Found a good login script so have to tweak it for your engine.

I knew I wasn't understanding your explanations. When I was talking to the company about the quote, in all his rattling he mentioned something about license (in trying to sell me their services of course), so it got me thinking. anyways it gave me an excuse to contact Dwayne, and also . .. you just never know, sometimes when I ask a vague question about something they drop a useful tidbit of info about something else. its all good man, I'm not telling you what to do. Now I understand what we are actually doing better. Will be getting back to updating the content info tomorrow and for the first few days next week. Hope to take another big bite out of it!


okay cool, good to get some stuff clarified. So it seems I don't have to create new databases for the different types of companies/industries. Personally I think the region thing is good, even though I don't know why. If the industry has been doing that I'm sure there's a good reason. And all it takes is to fill in Excel prior to converting into Access. In Excel there is an easy filldown feature where you can put information into one cell and then have it copied in all the cells below it, without having to copy/paste each particular cell like a dingalingbingbong. It can even do series, like if you write auto345 in one cell, the next cell would be auto346 and so on.

Sounds like you want to add one extra field - the email address for the rating agencies. Note that it is not a big deal to add fields later. What is more work is to create entirely new tables with entirely different fields, but squeezing a field in here and there isn't a problem. If you decide that you want to break up some of the fields into clicky boxes, in essence giving birth to 30 new fields instead of one, that would definitely be more work, but basically only as much as you might imagine. Perhaps in the distant future you will decide to add fields or restructure things a bit - not a problem at all and basically expected.

Okay, will look for a Ukrainian tomorrow. Fired my Indian guy. I'd say 85% of the people I try are totally useless. I know I'm a whiz on the computer but I simply refuse to pay someone who takes 4 minutes to do something which I can do in 15 to 30 seconds. But it will probably take me at least a week to put some adds up and eventually find someone, so make sure this is okay with you before I commence, since you seemed to state that you could get it done in about a week anyway. Remember that the RETURNs need to be manually erased in all those fields, which you did not do. That seems like a lot of tedious work. I've got a lot of similar work for my own databases and can never seem to muster up the desire to do work like that, so I'd rather wait until I'm earning some cash and pay someone else to do it. It's your choice how we handle this, but personally I wouldn't want to do it. What I will do, for certain, is to whip through the entire files during the conversion process to make sure things line up properly.


Okay, so considering it will take me about a week to find someone anyway, I'll ask you for confirmation one more time. I estimate that it would take them about 7 days to do it (total guess - but I'll certainly be on their butt to make sure they are efficient and quality and not jacking around with the price), so perhaps a two week delivery time from now. During that time I'll be working on the dbase and, once or before that is completed, it's only a matter of importing the data and adding the records. Unless of course you want the clicky box things, in which case the data needs to be reimported over the new fields, once they are broken up. Not a catastrophe. This is one of the reasons why I like to prepare it in Access beforehand - to give us both a chance to look at the results and get new ideas.


It's a waste of time to restructure things later,  not restructure, the basic structure of all listings is the same. just the list of products contained within the Products field is different for Primary mills (what you've already done), Panel mills, Remanufacturers, Pulp mills and Shake mills (already sent to you). The reason I brought it up is for the point below .. . .  dude, I was asking YOU. It really becomes inefficient for you to blaze through my emails and not give them much consideration. This is a very important point, if you want it a certain way. I gave you options 1 and 2, and wrote the positives and negatives of each point. also for panel mills the sizes are in square feet not board feet. This may not matter to you as it is data contained within a field rather than what the field is. I just thought it good to mention since I don't really know what small differences can cause a big snafu later. I can understand how it seems like I'm not really reading your emails . . . I read them but a LOT of this detailed stuff I'm just learning now. I was not kidding when I said I have avoided learning databases, with a passion, my entire career. Am I supposed to design a separate database and form structure for each region? No, not at all. Why are they separated into regions?? that's a good question, the only reason is because that's the way its always been! I'm working from the printed book, this is my fifth time confirming data and I just never thought of that. But of course for what we are doing it doesn't need to be that way! duh.  I have a feeling you should just send me everything so that I can analyse it all, develop a sound strategy and give it to someone with explicit instructions. The intention is to already have all the fields and that's that. After all, they're all just mills aren't they? Yes, exactly. I also think I should send you it all first. What you did so far with the Access file you already sent me is perfect. From what I understand you will build on that, adding the rest of the information in the same way. I'm going to have to charge you something, probably just a small amount, for having to post ads looking for a cheapo dude, and corresponding with many people and finding someone who is useful. I would like to farm out the tedious stuff . . . I accept the extra charge. If we wait for me to do it it's going to take a whole extra week, or more, and I can see myself missing something or making a basic mistake. You can wait until I get you everything, or send it bit by bit, its up to you. My focus is on making sure the actual information is correct, which is already taking a huge amount of time. I will pay in US dollars, no problem. Right now its at about $1.20 Cdn, the Euro is stronger. I will zip from now on, I forgot yesterday. Sorry. But I STILL need to know the field names. I do not understand the workings of the lumber industry. Perhaps after reviewing everything I will have an idea what fields and tables are required, but if you've had your head in this for several years, you should already have an idea which fields can be combined, or which need to be broken up etc. Just stare at the Access file I sent you. That is why I sent it to you - not to look at quickly and pat me on the back for a job well done, but to give you an idea how it should look on the web and how to organise all this data into forms etc. I could not find a single thing wrong with that file you sent. From what I understand it is one stage in organizing, to make sure everything was lined up properly under the field where it belonged. From there you will move forward with your fancy stuff that I don't understand. I will look at it again tomorrow, but I stared at it for quite a while, scrolled down scrolled across and everything was pretty much perfect.  SO, my job now (aside from updating the actual information) is to 1) decide about the data entry fields for the products, species and stuff (clicky box or type field). I read the email you sent explaining but couldn't really decide at that moment so have to think about it more today, and 2) look one more time at the Access file you sent to be completely sure it is as correct as I think it is. You can move forward with hiring someone, keep good track of your time and anything you have to pay (if you want me to throw some bucks into your PayPal so you don't have to use your own money that's cool) and - I agree - that to focus on quality and speed of work rather than cheapness is best. I think I will just keep sending you the files the way I have been doing (except zipping them first), and let you and the person you hire reorganize without geographic sections and realphabetize. The mill type, of course, still needs to be differentiated. You have a field for that in the Access file, I'm sure I remember correctly, so as far as I understand that's fine. If there's anything else glaring I have left outstanding let me know. It may seem cumbersome to you or that we might be going backwards a bit, in that I am taking a long time to understand properly, but as far as I know no work has been lost or needs to be redone so we're doing great! I will have more questions for you about future working, things like outgoing links (not just to the company website) but to the various grading agencies. Also, sometime in the summer after this has been up for a while I am going to want to send an email to any email address contained in a listing to notify them and to have them check for accuracy. Other stuff too that I don't know yet, as far as mass mailings and other things I can do to make money from this in the future. All in good time, though. Let's just get it up, accurate, and working first!


finally figured it out, and thought you might appreciate if I shared my findings with you. From what I've read on various forums, working with css and setting it differently for different browsers can be an ugly nightmare. I had to do a lot of reading and investigating, but finally found what the key is, and its so simple, and should work across all browsers, that I thought you'd like it if I shared it with you.

Anyway, what's important is that the table is embedded IN the <form> field, and that it is only ONE table. You can merge cells within rows using the colspan function, set the width of different tds for visual presentation, and probably put divs no problems within the cells, although I think putting tables within cells within the form might lead to problems. An overall simple and painless approach, and seems to work well in all the browsers. IE is apparently way behind on the css campaign so I didn't want to spend days piddling around with that. My simple approach works well and think I'll gladly use it from now on.

Have a good one,


I recently upgraded to a new mailing list server which seemed a lot better, but there are certain features I do not like. Since then I've found even a better mailing server, but it will take me perhaps a week to set up properly and test it out.

One option is that I use my old server but I'd have to create an email address for you for the Reply To field and which would automatically forward the responses back to you. I can do that no problem.

But if you'd like to wait about a week until I set up my new system, it has the following advantages:

- replies would go directly back to your email address and not through some invented one of mine

- it should allow attachments no problem

- I can set it so that it will send out no more than 500 emails an hour, and hence not overload the server, which could risk cutting off the emails before completing the full thousand plus emails.

My old server said they lifted the limit to unlimited, but I haven't used it in a while, and perhaps it would be better if I confirmed that the limit is still lifted before using it. Most servers are pretty sensitive about spamming and too many emails sent out per hour or day, so we should be careful about this.

Which option would you prefer?


From what I've been reading occasionally on forums over the past year and what was confirmed to from what some guru told me, Norton is potentially a sack of shit, and Eset (Nod32) blows it out of the water. Nod32 starts to operate on the kernel level, which is before Windows even starts, which makes it much more powerful. She should call her credit card company or something and get that money back - bunch of thieves. If mom wants super security, I would suggest she pay you and I can tell you what to do. I've already written to her about this but she's just too busy going to divadlos or simply doesn't understand. Or perhaps better, I teach you how to do it, you do it for her in exchange for all the lunches etc., you learn some very crucial things about the PC and from which you could probably make big bucks making other PCs secure etc., and I get a blackberry out of the deal. Besides all the money mom has lent me in the past, so I'm totally indebted as it is.

Here is a brief synopsis of what I can teach you. I've already made my computer quite secure, after reading some very scary things, and have compiled a lot of the info, but haven't had a chance to put it all online yet, in an easy to follow instructions. But much has already been put together.

The problem is that the viruses these days are getting damn sophisticated and no single antivirus software can keep up with it. But there are ways you can protect yourself, like taking vitamin C before a cold, instead of drugs once you've caught it. There are ways you can lock down your Windows to prevent the virus. Actually, and perhaps amazingly, can you imagine I haven't had a virus protection program on my computer practically forever? Occasionally when I'm concerned or suspicious I download ESET or other, better, software and run a full system scan, and confirm to myself that I'm totally clean. I can send you what I wrote up and help nurse you through it. Quite valuable information.

Just yesterday, in fact, I did some research about getting viruses from usb memory sticks. Some simple procedures you can do in Windows to lock against that as well. Probably around 3 to 4 hours of work for a total lockdown, but then she would never have to worry again. Norton by itself is a feable joke, and a system hog. I use many small programs instead, with no virus protection. Although the sites said I should use one, I don't cause I find I know what I'm doing, to get viruses, and that software only eats up ram, which I need for my work.

Well, let me know. Another option is a quick fix: Eset, which is pretty good, then one or two other key programs, perhaps lock down Windows, and then maybe some Trojan software scans. You'll probably find lots of shit on her computer that even Eset might overlook. You could tell me how many hours you want to invest into it and I'll write up a short list from most important to least, and you simply stop once your time runs out. Do it one day when she's preparing lunch for you or something. YOu can then take the entire file I send you and use it for other people, if they ever ask you, and charge an arm and a leg. latero

Norton charged mum for another year (some automatic renewal BS) even though we took it off her computer. Now the ESET thing we put on there needs to be renewed. Is the ESET still the best, or should she go back to Norton? Off to the Rogers store right now for your BB!


Coolness, so how do I hook you guys up? Should he come down to you with some printouts, or start by email? His English is not so great but my stepmother is teaching him. I think he has real good talent and thing you could be surprised, and I'd like to encourage him. I think he'd be glad to work for dirt cheap for a chance to develop his skills etc.

His hot teacher? My tongue fell out of my face when I first saw her walking up those six flights of stairs. You're one of the most respectable guys I know, but I'd never give this jewel away. I think we lost contact anyway, boohoo.

I've learned a lot about virus protection if you'd like help with that. You can't really trust a simple program and an entire system is better. Lock your entire Windows down. You can also protect yourself from memory sticks. Big science.

I may be in Prague July/August - excited about the prospect. With da beast!!!!

sorry that I didn't get back to you earlier, but we have been dealing with this stupid virus that infected most of our computers and some of our clients websites... Been working on cleaning everything up over the weekend. I could give your kid some work depending on his level of expertise and talent... If he's willing to work for little money in exchange for learning to tricks of the trade, it could work out. Is he only doing flash or other programs as well (photoshop, illustrator, etc.)? Does he have any work online that I can see? Can you introduce me to his hot teacher? Just joking... Kind of...

hey dude, trying to get my kid into graphic design and Flash. He's already quite the artist and already spent a lot of money hiring some hot chick to climb those six flights of stairs once a week and give him art lessons. What's your most interesting Flash page so that I can wow him? Got a job for him? I'm sure he can work real cheap and you'd be surprised at his art skills. We got some serious artists in our family and looks like picked up those genes.


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